The real issue here is the Church's allying itself with state power. That has been avoided from time to time but it seems like a perennial temptation and whenever/whereever it occurs bad things happen.
I think it's always more complex than that. Just 'wanting power' in some crude way might motivate some people, but not the Church as a whole. The real question it has faced since Emperor Constantine converted has been how much to work with the power that exists. State power has been a reality for ten thousand years and will continue to be so. Should Christians work to convert the state, or stay away from it? If the former, what does that entail. If the latter, how exactly? There have been many Christian answers to these questions, and the argument continues. I am an Orthodox Christian who doesn't like Christian alliances with power, so I'm already a walking contradiction.
Yes, and obviously that has happened repeatedly throughout history. I see it as a problem of power rather than of this faith though, and the reason is that it has also happened in every other faith, and indeed in every secular ideological system too (see communism - how's that egalitarian earthly paradise going?)
My conclusion is not too far from yours in that respect at least. Corruption, and corrupt systems, will always be with us, and the modern collapse is now baked in. I have also given up worrying about things on that level. If I'm going to talk about being a Christian I need to practice living like one.
Well, churches tend to reflect their cultures of course. I have come across overt anti-semitism more than once in Eastern Europe, alas. And Romania, which is a gathering ground for empires, has had it hard. Ottomans, communists and fascists have all taken bites from it, and as you say there were moments where elements of the Romanian church went in the wrong direction (though with resistance from other elements, it must be said.)
I think it is worth remembering that we Brits, unlike a lot of other Europeans, have never had to make a stark choice between being governed by fascists and being governed by communists. This softens my judgement somewhat, though it doesn't remove it. And as you say, soft things tend not to survive. The Romanians are huge fans of their former saint king Stefan the Great, who was not very saintly at all in his life. But he did hold off the Ottoman invasions of Europe almost single-handedly (with no help from the Pope, despite asking for it.)
Still, there is a different between defensive wars and persecutions. The Eastern Church has never had anything like the inquisitions, but it's had its share of unChristian behaviour. Personally I find that the Orthodox way has survived despite this, rather than because of it.
I think that the Coptic Church has in fact been the most peaceful traditional church, probably because it is a minority church in a Muslim region, and thus has spent more time being persecuted than persecuting.
Unreal. I, for one, believe you owe Paul an apology. This Post comes across as that mischievous child doing something provocative in an attempt to gain the attention of his parent.
Why would you introduce such toxicity on the occasion of the completion of his 50 Holy wells series? Why not ask in last weeks' Salon or next months?
Does this imply that Paul is an Anti-Semite because he worships at and support this supposedly Anti-Semite institution?
And also, what Romanian Orthodox church? Are you talking about the millions upon millions of the past, present and future ordinary folk who just want to praise God for His infinite Mercy? Or perhaps it is the tens of thousands of Priests, Monks and laity who were imprisoned, tortured and executed by the vile communists under Ceausescu?
Are you saying the entire church population was (is) Anti-Semite? 50.1%? How do you know? Have your been to Romania and talked to the elders there? You said you read books, but what books and by whom?
Finally, you seem to imply that there is something inherently wrong in Christianity that prevents it from following the commands of Christ. Is it the descent into decadence and deviancy of the West which is corrupting the Church not what you are seeing? What institution or religion in the West has remained pristine in the face of this decay? Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism?
So you are free to say what you will when you choose, but from now on I will just keep scrolling by when I see another of your imbecile posts.
No, i believe it is not an overreaction. It has nothing to do with agree or disagree or debate. It has all to do with the timing. We are on the edge of a nightmare erupting-World War III can blow up any day now. This not theory! This is real world right now. Father Calvin Robinson had to flee Britain, people are getting arrested for praying as our society crumbles before our eyes. Can we not have one moment, at least, to celebrate a positive experience (your completion of 50 Holy wells) without someone introducing this shit amongst us and attacking our Faith?
'Father Calvin Robinson had to flee Britain' might be better translated as 'Father Calvin Robinson was offered a media job in the USA.' I'm sure his talents will be better employed there. I didn't see Mark's comment as 'attacking our faith' so much as raising some perfectly good questions about power. Personally, I see him as someone struggling with the reflexive anti-Christianity which our society teaches all of us. We all have to pass through that if we want something real. If something here wasn't intriguing him, he wouldn't be reading. In the meantime, we can all keep our comments civil, which is a requirement here.
Well, that’s disappointing, never meet your heroes eh? You’ve never addressed the timing issue. Why bring up these challenges and attacks during an occasion of celebration? Doesn’t decorum, an important part of civility, require a more appropriate time such as the monthly Salon? It felt like someone trying to rain on the parade.
As far as Father Calvin is concerned, shall we let him speak for himself then?
He is currently the vicar of St Paul’s Anglican Catholic Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Regarding the post attacking our Faith, he stated, "I wonder if there is any branch of the more traditional Christian church that has actually maintained a Christian doctrine and not persecuted one group or another over the years. I suspect not,..." If that is not an attack on our Faith, then what is?
At what point do we as the Faithful finally say "enough is enough", become the true Ecclesia militans and begin to fight back?
Look, if you do not want my input that's fine. I can just read your articles until my subscription expires. I do support your requirement for civility but I shall never cease defending the Faith.
Better not to have any heroes! Especially if you expect them just to agree with you on everything ;-)
I actually lost a subscriber recently who stormed out using that exact line. His complaint was that I was being *too* Christian. You can't please everyone.
Look: I believe in talking to people who disagree with me. Without that, it's culture war screaming all the way down. Like my patron saint, I am happy to meet everyone where they are. I find him a good role model, and try to emulate that attitude.
Marc can explain why he wrote what he did. He is not a Christian, and is clearly sceptical of Christianity. I disagree with many of his views, and will stand behind mine. But he stays here reading, so something must be connecting. The line you quote here is actually him asking a question. He begins with 'I wonder ...' If he wonders, I am happy to respond. As it happens, I agree that for much of its history the Church has failed to be Christian. I don't see how any serious Christian could disagree with that. If we inside the Church are not holding ourselves to our own standard, we should be.
I'm very happy with your input - as I am with everyone's. Me disagreeing with you is not me silencing you. It is just adult discussion, and it's what makes this place worth having.
In the interests of continuing that discussion, let me ask you: what would 'fighting back' look like, in your view?
I probably spoke too soon about Calvin Robinson. I withdraw that remark. It is not the case that he had to 'flee Britain', however. He chose to leave, which is not the same thing.
I didn't actually get up into NI. I do have a standing invitation to a Belfast well to take up though. This series was very unscientific - it basically covered wherever I happened to be!
Actually it is not true that Catholics are a majority, it’s a stalemate at the moment. The statelet of NI was artificially created to have a majority Protestant in 1920 (a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people Carson). Hence the long struggle for Catholic rights in NI.
What is little known is that the electricity grid in NI is now owned the Eircom, the Irish electricity company. This effectively means that someone in Dublin could throw a switch and blackout the whole of NI at a stroke. So how independent is NI really?
How moving, this view of a possible future. Thank you so much. You uplifted my heart every time. And I hope you will do something on Sundays in which we can participate again! Love!
I'm very late to this beautiful series, but thank you for it. I'll now read them all, from the beginning, because you mentioned the Desert Fathers: now I have to find where and in which context ...
Regarding the face on that early crucifixion: I've seen similar 'faces' on the outside of a little church sitting between Corofin and Kilfenora - but that was about 30 years ago, dunno if it's still there. In any case, finding and visiting ancient small village churches is perhaps something you might envisage ...
Last year a great event took place in Clonmacnoise🙏
It was Walk the Cross and people walked 33 kms from North, South, East and West into Clonmacnoise for the feast day of the Exhalation of the Cross. Each group carried a part of the cross which was assembled in Clonmacnoise where Holy Mass was held on the feast day🙏
This year the inspiration came to start at Clonmacnoise and walk to Dublin🙏 So on Tuesday 10th at 8pm Holy Mass was again held in Clonmacnoise. The following day the walk to Dublin began in Mullingar culminating in an amazing Eucharistic Procession from Phibsboro to O’Connell Street down Henry Street to St. Mary of the Angel’s Church in Church Street🙏 Holy Mass was celebrated in a Church filled to overcapacity🙏
It was an amazing spectacle confirming that the faith might be weakened in Ireland but many people are waking up to the ultimate reality of Life, of Truth and of the Glory of Almighty God🙏
Thank you for your series which again is encouraging everyone to deal with the 4 final things which face us all🙏
There are NO secular solutions to the problems in our world only Divine🙏
This is a booklet I have written about our world and the history of our oppression;
Thank you. Enjoyable and eniightening. I've learned a lot painlessly. True edutainment. On my own this weekend and was already planning to go to Dunbar this afternoon but you've inspired to me hunt out St Bay's Well. She's an Irish saint who settled here before moving back west to an island in the Firth of Clyde where she died: https://dunbarbattery.org.uk/2017/06/st-bey/. Can't find an image of the well googling but it appears on the 1854 6" OS map so I'll have a look and post a photo if I'm successful.
We (I invited a friend to join me) did manage to find the well or rather a few masonry remnants of it, just a bit above and to the right of St Bay’s Cave. Clearly at some point the rest of it has fallen into the North Sea. A long time ago as it doesn’t appear on recent maps. To get down to the beach to take the photo we had to bypass a locked gate warning us of the dangers of falling rocks, probably as a result of last winter’s storm which were ferocious. So, I fear it’s only a matter of time before the last fragments of the well follow the rest. I wonder though if the pipe encased in concrete, sticking out a bit further to the right on the photo has something to do with the spring which supplied the original well.
I'm sad that this is ending. I have a hard time letting things end, and this summer, something that has lasted in my life for over fifteen years has ended. Something like your pilgrimage, but not quite.
The saints ? I have a harder time feeling in touch with them than with the water, which calls to me all the time, even in my home.
Looking forward still to what you will propose to us. I'm curious.
I am sorry for what happened to you. My heart goes out to you so you know someone wants you fell better and stay on an ever keel. I always read your comments and find them very well thought out and wise. A prayer for you too.
That is a beautiful thought and compliment. I am touched by being considered kin to you and some others on this site. I have no such kindered spirits in my family. Kinfolks, as we say where I came from, a family of like minded people who were willing to help each other if the need arose. My spirit has been uplifted.
This has been such a joy every Sunday. It is so hard in Ireland to talk in public about Christianity or faith without being mocked and ridiculed. It is so heartening to know that many are going to these places, quietly to pray and a small light of faith is flickering still.
Thank you, Paul. Your writing offers a respite from the current tumult in Ireland -- with the unending news of abuse in schools and the ongoing rejection of all things Christian. The critics have the podium today, with the result that much goodness is being forgotten. Incidentally, how curious it is that four of the more sane voices in these times are Englishmen: yourself, Shaw, McGilchrist and Holland.
Robert L, it is also a respite from ALL current things in the news. I really enjoyed the pictures Paul, to have so many sites they must have been very important to people at the time they were built and brought a significant amount of peace to people over the years. I don't know much about the saints and reading about their lives was very interesting.
The real issue here is the Church's allying itself with state power. That has been avoided from time to time but it seems like a perennial temptation and whenever/whereever it occurs bad things happen.
I think it's always more complex than that. Just 'wanting power' in some crude way might motivate some people, but not the Church as a whole. The real question it has faced since Emperor Constantine converted has been how much to work with the power that exists. State power has been a reality for ten thousand years and will continue to be so. Should Christians work to convert the state, or stay away from it? If the former, what does that entail. If the latter, how exactly? There have been many Christian answers to these questions, and the argument continues. I am an Orthodox Christian who doesn't like Christian alliances with power, so I'm already a walking contradiction.
Yes, and obviously that has happened repeatedly throughout history. I see it as a problem of power rather than of this faith though, and the reason is that it has also happened in every other faith, and indeed in every secular ideological system too (see communism - how's that egalitarian earthly paradise going?)
My conclusion is not too far from yours in that respect at least. Corruption, and corrupt systems, will always be with us, and the modern collapse is now baked in. I have also given up worrying about things on that level. If I'm going to talk about being a Christian I need to practice living like one.
Well, churches tend to reflect their cultures of course. I have come across overt anti-semitism more than once in Eastern Europe, alas. And Romania, which is a gathering ground for empires, has had it hard. Ottomans, communists and fascists have all taken bites from it, and as you say there were moments where elements of the Romanian church went in the wrong direction (though with resistance from other elements, it must be said.)
I think it is worth remembering that we Brits, unlike a lot of other Europeans, have never had to make a stark choice between being governed by fascists and being governed by communists. This softens my judgement somewhat, though it doesn't remove it. And as you say, soft things tend not to survive. The Romanians are huge fans of their former saint king Stefan the Great, who was not very saintly at all in his life. But he did hold off the Ottoman invasions of Europe almost single-handedly (with no help from the Pope, despite asking for it.)
Still, there is a different between defensive wars and persecutions. The Eastern Church has never had anything like the inquisitions, but it's had its share of unChristian behaviour. Personally I find that the Orthodox way has survived despite this, rather than because of it.
I think that the Coptic Church has in fact been the most peaceful traditional church, probably because it is a minority church in a Muslim region, and thus has spent more time being persecuted than persecuting.
Unreal. I, for one, believe you owe Paul an apology. This Post comes across as that mischievous child doing something provocative in an attempt to gain the attention of his parent.
Why would you introduce such toxicity on the occasion of the completion of his 50 Holy wells series? Why not ask in last weeks' Salon or next months?
Does this imply that Paul is an Anti-Semite because he worships at and support this supposedly Anti-Semite institution?
And also, what Romanian Orthodox church? Are you talking about the millions upon millions of the past, present and future ordinary folk who just want to praise God for His infinite Mercy? Or perhaps it is the tens of thousands of Priests, Monks and laity who were imprisoned, tortured and executed by the vile communists under Ceausescu?
Are you saying the entire church population was (is) Anti-Semite? 50.1%? How do you know? Have your been to Romania and talked to the elders there? You said you read books, but what books and by whom?
Finally, you seem to imply that there is something inherently wrong in Christianity that prevents it from following the commands of Christ. Is it the descent into decadence and deviancy of the West which is corrupting the Church not what you are seeing? What institution or religion in the West has remained pristine in the face of this decay? Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism?
So you are free to say what you will when you choose, but from now on I will just keep scrolling by when I see another of your imbecile posts.
I think you're overreacting here Johnny. No apology necessary. People can disagree or inquire. Let's be respectful.
No, i believe it is not an overreaction. It has nothing to do with agree or disagree or debate. It has all to do with the timing. We are on the edge of a nightmare erupting-World War III can blow up any day now. This not theory! This is real world right now. Father Calvin Robinson had to flee Britain, people are getting arrested for praying as our society crumbles before our eyes. Can we not have one moment, at least, to celebrate a positive experience (your completion of 50 Holy wells) without someone introducing this shit amongst us and attacking our Faith?
'Father Calvin Robinson had to flee Britain' might be better translated as 'Father Calvin Robinson was offered a media job in the USA.' I'm sure his talents will be better employed there. I didn't see Mark's comment as 'attacking our faith' so much as raising some perfectly good questions about power. Personally, I see him as someone struggling with the reflexive anti-Christianity which our society teaches all of us. We all have to pass through that if we want something real. If something here wasn't intriguing him, he wouldn't be reading. In the meantime, we can all keep our comments civil, which is a requirement here.
Well, that’s disappointing, never meet your heroes eh? You’ve never addressed the timing issue. Why bring up these challenges and attacks during an occasion of celebration? Doesn’t decorum, an important part of civility, require a more appropriate time such as the monthly Salon? It felt like someone trying to rain on the parade.
As far as Father Calvin is concerned, shall we let him speak for himself then?
Here is a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcxtC5n_664
He is currently the vicar of St Paul’s Anglican Catholic Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Regarding the post attacking our Faith, he stated, "I wonder if there is any branch of the more traditional Christian church that has actually maintained a Christian doctrine and not persecuted one group or another over the years. I suspect not,..." If that is not an attack on our Faith, then what is?
At what point do we as the Faithful finally say "enough is enough", become the true Ecclesia militans and begin to fight back?
Look, if you do not want my input that's fine. I can just read your articles until my subscription expires. I do support your requirement for civility but I shall never cease defending the Faith.
In Christ
Better not to have any heroes! Especially if you expect them just to agree with you on everything ;-)
I actually lost a subscriber recently who stormed out using that exact line. His complaint was that I was being *too* Christian. You can't please everyone.
Look: I believe in talking to people who disagree with me. Without that, it's culture war screaming all the way down. Like my patron saint, I am happy to meet everyone where they are. I find him a good role model, and try to emulate that attitude.
Marc can explain why he wrote what he did. He is not a Christian, and is clearly sceptical of Christianity. I disagree with many of his views, and will stand behind mine. But he stays here reading, so something must be connecting. The line you quote here is actually him asking a question. He begins with 'I wonder ...' If he wonders, I am happy to respond. As it happens, I agree that for much of its history the Church has failed to be Christian. I don't see how any serious Christian could disagree with that. If we inside the Church are not holding ourselves to our own standard, we should be.
I'm very happy with your input - as I am with everyone's. Me disagreeing with you is not me silencing you. It is just adult discussion, and it's what makes this place worth having.
In the interests of continuing that discussion, let me ask you: what would 'fighting back' look like, in your view?
I probably spoke too soon about Calvin Robinson. I withdraw that remark. It is not the case that he had to 'flee Britain', however. He chose to leave, which is not the same thing.
I've really enjoyed this series, Paul. Thank you so much for sharing your travels with us!
Me too!
Yes, thank you!
Were Northern Irish wells not surveyed or are there fewer wells there?
I didn't actually get up into NI. I do have a standing invitation to a Belfast well to take up though. This series was very unscientific - it basically covered wherever I happened to be!
Also, I suspect there are indeed fewer there as a result of its history, but I'm not sure and am happy to be corrected on that.
Fantastic! Thank you for that.
Actually it is not true that Catholics are a majority, it’s a stalemate at the moment. The statelet of NI was artificially created to have a majority Protestant in 1920 (a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people Carson). Hence the long struggle for Catholic rights in NI.
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2022/09/22/catholics-outnumber-protestants-in-north-for-first-time-census-to-show/
What is little known is that the electricity grid in NI is now owned the Eircom, the Irish electricity company. This effectively means that someone in Dublin could throw a switch and blackout the whole of NI at a stroke. So how independent is NI really?
Fabulous series - loved it. Thanks.
How moving, this view of a possible future. Thank you so much. You uplifted my heart every time. And I hope you will do something on Sundays in which we can participate again! Love!
I'm very late to this beautiful series, but thank you for it. I'll now read them all, from the beginning, because you mentioned the Desert Fathers: now I have to find where and in which context ...
Regarding the face on that early crucifixion: I've seen similar 'faces' on the outside of a little church sitting between Corofin and Kilfenora - but that was about 30 years ago, dunno if it's still there. In any case, finding and visiting ancient small village churches is perhaps something you might envisage ...
Thanks again!
Last year a great event took place in Clonmacnoise🙏
It was Walk the Cross and people walked 33 kms from North, South, East and West into Clonmacnoise for the feast day of the Exhalation of the Cross. Each group carried a part of the cross which was assembled in Clonmacnoise where Holy Mass was held on the feast day🙏
This year the inspiration came to start at Clonmacnoise and walk to Dublin🙏 So on Tuesday 10th at 8pm Holy Mass was again held in Clonmacnoise. The following day the walk to Dublin began in Mullingar culminating in an amazing Eucharistic Procession from Phibsboro to O’Connell Street down Henry Street to St. Mary of the Angel’s Church in Church Street🙏 Holy Mass was celebrated in a Church filled to overcapacity🙏
It was an amazing spectacle confirming that the faith might be weakened in Ireland but many people are waking up to the ultimate reality of Life, of Truth and of the Glory of Almighty God🙏
Thank you for your series which again is encouraging everyone to deal with the 4 final things which face us all🙏
There are NO secular solutions to the problems in our world only Divine🙏
This is a booklet I have written about our world and the history of our oppression;
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XoJQ4F_u9qy8cgwYPzr5ICnJHRuhyuiZ/view?usp=drivesdk
I didn't know about that. Great to hear, and thanks for telling me about it.
https://walkthecross.ie
Thank you so much
Thank you. Enjoyable and eniightening. I've learned a lot painlessly. True edutainment. On my own this weekend and was already planning to go to Dunbar this afternoon but you've inspired to me hunt out St Bay's Well. She's an Irish saint who settled here before moving back west to an island in the Firth of Clyde where she died: https://dunbarbattery.org.uk/2017/06/st-bey/. Can't find an image of the well googling but it appears on the 1854 6" OS map so I'll have a look and post a photo if I'm successful.
Great. Good luck! Let us know if you find it.
Thanks, Paul. Yes, I did find its remains and have got a photo but can't find a way of uploading it into a comment. Any ideas of how to do it?
I'm not sure if it is possible actually, but I am no tecchie. You might be able to start a chat thread though.
I've worked it out! I've the moved the photo to icloud so anyone can download it: https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/04aEYATYxfs_AIaIYZsuch47g#St_Bay's_Cave_and_Well,_Dunbar
And here's the text to accompany it:
We (I invited a friend to join me) did manage to find the well or rather a few masonry remnants of it, just a bit above and to the right of St Bay’s Cave. Clearly at some point the rest of it has fallen into the North Sea. A long time ago as it doesn’t appear on recent maps. To get down to the beach to take the photo we had to bypass a locked gate warning us of the dangers of falling rocks, probably as a result of last winter’s storm which were ferocious. So, I fear it’s only a matter of time before the last fragments of the well follow the rest. I wonder though if the pipe encased in concrete, sticking out a bit further to the right on the photo has something to do with the spring which supplied the original well.
Thank you, Paul.
I'm sad that this is ending. I have a hard time letting things end, and this summer, something that has lasted in my life for over fifteen years has ended. Something like your pilgrimage, but not quite.
The saints ? I have a harder time feeling in touch with them than with the water, which calls to me all the time, even in my home.
Looking forward still to what you will propose to us. I'm curious.
Take care.
I am sorry for what happened to you. My heart goes out to you so you know someone wants you fell better and stay on an ever keel. I always read your comments and find them very well thought out and wise. A prayer for you too.
Thank you very much for your kind thoughts. I have singled you out on this site...along with a few others who are becoming kin ?
That is a beautiful thought and compliment. I am touched by being considered kin to you and some others on this site. I have no such kindered spirits in my family. Kinfolks, as we say where I came from, a family of like minded people who were willing to help each other if the need arose. My spirit has been uplifted.
Will miss these Sunday morning meditations. Hopefully, there'll be a book!
Thank you. Looking forward to what is ahead. God bless, Olive
This has been such a joy every Sunday. It is so hard in Ireland to talk in public about Christianity or faith without being mocked and ridiculed. It is so heartening to know that many are going to these places, quietly to pray and a small light of faith is flickering still.
Am I the only one who finds that final image - an IRA soldier ready to pounce - disturbing?
I'm wearing a flat cap, not a balaclava. Also, I have a camera rather than an armalite, due to the Good Friday Agreement ;-)
Thank you, Paul. Your writing offers a respite from the current tumult in Ireland -- with the unending news of abuse in schools and the ongoing rejection of all things Christian. The critics have the podium today, with the result that much goodness is being forgotten. Incidentally, how curious it is that four of the more sane voices in these times are Englishmen: yourself, Shaw, McGilchrist and Holland.
I'm glad to to hear that at least one person still considers me sane ;-)
2 ;)
Robert L, it is also a respite from ALL current things in the news. I really enjoyed the pictures Paul, to have so many sites they must have been very important to people at the time they were built and brought a significant amount of peace to people over the years. I don't know much about the saints and reading about their lives was very interesting.