I have had occasional differences with you (I'm less bullish on asceticism and still believe that desire and technology are redeemable), however, I wholeheartedly agree with every word of this. From now on when someone asks me why I am a Christian Anarchist and what that can possibly mean this is where I will point them. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for this. Would love to invite you back to Grail Country discuss if you are open to it.
Great talk, Paul. I generally pop up in these comments to disagree with you on some point, but I have nothing but praise for that talk. I’m still pretty ignorant about Christianity, but that sounded like genuine Christian wisdom to me. It inspires me to dig deeper.
Bravo for a bull's eye address. Sorry that I could not make it down to the Union Club to meet and thank you. I was tempted to give a standing ovation more than a couple of times. One of the biggest fallacies I see in the Christian Civilization buzz and integralist chatter is the notion that we can somehow "build" a "Christian Civilization" without forming Christians...and when you form Christians according to the Gospel, conforming oneself to the image, likeness, example and teachings of Christ one is faced precisely with the conundrum (from their perspective) that you confront in this marvelous talk. Seems to me that the last at least nominal attempt to form such a civilization buried itself in a Himalaya of corpses on European soil from 1914-45. Both sides had God emblazoned on their belt buckles I'm told. I agree that we need to reel the clock back a bit and start over...and some have gotten as far as Trent it seems. My sense is that we need to keep going...back to Galilee somehow. Anything else seems like a distraction at this point. This will be hard work. I am reminded of Pope Benedict's words while he was still Fr. Ratzinger in 1969:
“From the crisis of today the church of tomorrow will emerge-- a church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, she will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly, she will discover new forms of ministry and there will be ordained to the priesthood approved christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations, or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion.
But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will recognize her true center and experience the sacraments again as the worship of God...
"The church will be a more spiritual church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting a little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self will will have to be shed. One might predict that all of this will take time. The process will be long and wearisome... But when this trial, this sifting, has passed, a great power will flow from the more spiritualised and simplified church.
Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that was meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.
And so it seems certain to me that the church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the church of the political cult which is dead already...but the church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man's home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”
Thank you, Michael...especially for the quotation from Pope Benedict. I have long sensed that the church "must die", at least to its present configuration and preoccupations. Only then can she come to Resurrection and lead her people into "theosis" and transformation into the "likeness of God."
Hi Kathleen….sorry for taking so long to respond. This quote is from “Faith and the Future” p. 116-117 written by Fr. Joseph Ratzinger in 1969. Available from Ignatius Press…which is a prolific publisher of his work.
I have this image in mind of western civilisation being a sprouting outgrowth from its humble Christian roots, but that old and dying growth shadows the young new growth that is so desperately needed.
A geat pruning might be just what we need, but that requires putting our faith back in truely Christian values, rather than doubling down on the false prophet of technological civilisation.
What the new growth brings we cannot know until we have enough faith to let go, and let it happen organically.
I really needed to hear this today, thank you Brother. It’s so easy to have one’s feelings of national or religious identity be hijacked by political movements. This talk has helped reposition my love of Christ where it should be, on the love of our Great Father and of our neighbour.
My own reconversion (to Catholicism) owes much to having encountered Peterson seven years ago. He offered me and doubtless numerous others a helpful and pragmatic bridge from secular modernism to Christianity through the lens of psychology. If not for him, it is likely I would still be stranded behind enemy lines, as it were, to borrow a CS Lewis allusion.
He has certainly been useful for a lot of people in that regard. What he is doing now though, in my view at least, is something different. I do not like the way he talks about this faith, or uses it to promote his politics.
I have had occasional differences with you (I'm less bullish on asceticism and still believe that desire and technology are redeemable), however, I wholeheartedly agree with every word of this. From now on when someone asks me why I am a Christian Anarchist and what that can possibly mean this is where I will point them. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for this. Would love to invite you back to Grail Country discuss if you are open to it.
Beautiful talk, Paul. I enjoyed it a lot, and there's lots to think about.
For sure, prayer is a big issue : what it is, what it is for, how it transforms us, and the world.
And we do need to be transformed, I believe. Much more than we need to be actively seeking to transform the world around us.
Great talk, Paul. I generally pop up in these comments to disagree with you on some point, but I have nothing but praise for that talk. I’m still pretty ignorant about Christianity, but that sounded like genuine Christian wisdom to me. It inspires me to dig deeper.
Bravo. So illuminating. Thank you.
Bravo for a bull's eye address. Sorry that I could not make it down to the Union Club to meet and thank you. I was tempted to give a standing ovation more than a couple of times. One of the biggest fallacies I see in the Christian Civilization buzz and integralist chatter is the notion that we can somehow "build" a "Christian Civilization" without forming Christians...and when you form Christians according to the Gospel, conforming oneself to the image, likeness, example and teachings of Christ one is faced precisely with the conundrum (from their perspective) that you confront in this marvelous talk. Seems to me that the last at least nominal attempt to form such a civilization buried itself in a Himalaya of corpses on European soil from 1914-45. Both sides had God emblazoned on their belt buckles I'm told. I agree that we need to reel the clock back a bit and start over...and some have gotten as far as Trent it seems. My sense is that we need to keep going...back to Galilee somehow. Anything else seems like a distraction at this point. This will be hard work. I am reminded of Pope Benedict's words while he was still Fr. Ratzinger in 1969:
“From the crisis of today the church of tomorrow will emerge-- a church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, she will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly, she will discover new forms of ministry and there will be ordained to the priesthood approved christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations, or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion.
But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will recognize her true center and experience the sacraments again as the worship of God...
"The church will be a more spiritual church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting a little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self will will have to be shed. One might predict that all of this will take time. The process will be long and wearisome... But when this trial, this sifting, has passed, a great power will flow from the more spiritualised and simplified church.
Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that was meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.
And so it seems certain to me that the church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the church of the political cult which is dead already...but the church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man's home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”
Thank you, Michael...especially for the quotation from Pope Benedict. I have long sensed that the church "must die", at least to its present configuration and preoccupations. Only then can she come to Resurrection and lead her people into "theosis" and transformation into the "likeness of God."
Michael,
From what book or article did you take this excerpt? I would like to read it in its entirety.
Thank you.
Kathleen
Hi Kathleen….sorry for taking so long to respond. This quote is from “Faith and the Future” p. 116-117 written by Fr. Joseph Ratzinger in 1969. Available from Ignatius Press…which is a prolific publisher of his work.
I have this image in mind of western civilisation being a sprouting outgrowth from its humble Christian roots, but that old and dying growth shadows the young new growth that is so desperately needed.
A geat pruning might be just what we need, but that requires putting our faith back in truely Christian values, rather than doubling down on the false prophet of technological civilisation.
What the new growth brings we cannot know until we have enough faith to let go, and let it happen organically.
I really enjoyed this, thanks.
This talk got me thinking , what does it mean to “not resist evil” ?
Loved to hear a proper critique of Jordan Peterson from an actual Christian perspective.
I really needed to hear this today, thank you Brother. It’s so easy to have one’s feelings of national or religious identity be hijacked by political movements. This talk has helped reposition my love of Christ where it should be, on the love of our Great Father and of our neighbour.
So appreciated your talk -- a chastening and encouraging reminder about the true nature of Christ's upside-down kingdom!
or right-side up, if we change our own orientation!
My own reconversion (to Catholicism) owes much to having encountered Peterson seven years ago. He offered me and doubtless numerous others a helpful and pragmatic bridge from secular modernism to Christianity through the lens of psychology. If not for him, it is likely I would still be stranded behind enemy lines, as it were, to borrow a CS Lewis allusion.
He has certainly been useful for a lot of people in that regard. What he is doing now though, in my view at least, is something different. I do not like the way he talks about this faith, or uses it to promote his politics.