Just wanted to say how what you said about "I'm a gatherer, not a hunter" really resonated with me so much - what a useful articulation of a way of being! There's so much there - it's feminine, receptive, receiving all good things as gifts, not seeking to control the outcome, being open to surprise and the hand of God. The idea of gathering the gifts as they are given and saying "thank you," rather than identifying the specific thing I want and setting about to acquire exactly that, is a paradigm I can live happily and honestly in. It's a way to live out "Thy will be done," and I'm grateful to you for putting it so succinctly.
But am aware I am not good at that process of patiently acquiring a skill … I’m a dabbler !
But then realised that just reading a book which seems challenging ( I’m a hundred pages into susannah Clark’s Jonathan strange and mr norrell which is over 900 pages long!) to even think of beginning such a book and then persisting until it becomes a world which it is a joy to be a part of is the same …… and resisting the impatience in me that says there are so many other books I need to read ; resisting the urge to get it done but taking joy in the complex world it is inviting me into complete with long footnotes .
And then my body being stretched and strained by gardening and that good obsession to keep weeding , even though darkness is falling , and I need to make a meal or last week out blackberrying to just pick the next juicy one and the next despite the scratched legs and purpled fingers.
Thank you so much for all your thoughts .
I was having a conversation with a dear friend yesterday concerning his relative who had decided to end her life as she doesn’t want to suffer through the last weeks of her life as as ( she lives in the Netherlands) and knew I felt uncomfortable with this but your conversation helped me to remember why.
Thanks for a great conversation Paul. I thoroughly enjoy your writing and thoughts. I was very pleased to be introduced to Caroline Ross and hear about her experiences with art. I too went to art school at a similar time. I have a love of painting and drawing and was excited to hone my skills, only to be disappointed with what I was actually offered. There was no drawing, there was no painting and there was no developing skills. At the time I was actually drawn into this conceptual way of thinking and for a time tried to be an artist on terms that just didn't sit right with me.
Long story short, I moved away from art so I could earn a living to exist in the world. I came back to painting 12 years after graduating, trying to make a living out of pet portraits in ink (I have since stopped because I couldn't actually make a living). My art college self would have been embarrassed of this commercial path. But now I feel glad that I was able to start making marks and actually developing my skills again. I do hope to go back to drawing and painting again very soon, for the love of it and maybe make something of beauty.
In any case, thanks for bringing all these thoughts to light :-)
Caroline's journey from postmodern art school back to grinding her own pigments from stones perfectly captures something profound about our moment.
Traditional craftsmen knew they were participating in cosmic significance, not just assembling materials. When she makes ink and cuts a quill, she taps into that ancient understanding where the physical work itself becomes a form of contemplation and connection to deeper patterns.
The ink is like the dark floodwaters, and giving them shape as she writes is like bringing order and meaning out of those primordial depths.
As a craftsman, I somewhat disagree. Or, I would at least submit that it's far more complicated than that.
It sounds so romantic to think of that craftsman who starts from nothing and creates great work. But the "ancient understanding" that we craftsmen tap into is more often a practical sense that the wheel need not be re-invented.
There are scant few potters who dig their own clay, slake their own glazes from rocks they've ground themselves. It's not practical if one is going to make a living in craft.
Unless.....
And if they do, you probably know about them BECAUSE they do ... essentially, as with Caroline Ross .... it is the very marketing tool by which she is known in a world glutted with millions of artists doing something else.
There is an undeniable joy and education in getting back to (and being knowledgeable in) the most fundamental elements of one's craft. And it can be a wonderful hobby to do so. But it's not practical if you're going to make a living .....unless.... that is the niche upon which you're going to market your work.
Home-made clays and glazes and pigments and papers and anything else you can imagine as elemental to a craft are quite often inferior. They have their charms -- sometimes in their very fragile and fleeting nature. But they are quite often inferior materials to work from. They are the Flintstones stone wheels. And to suggest that they are a superior wheel and should be affixed to the modern automobile is, well, yabba-dabba-doo.
Three themes in the conversation that struck home with me.
1. Counter to what our art schools have been teaching us for the past 100 years, structure doesn't inhibit creativity, it inspires it. A study done two decades ago: https://uxdesign.cc/fenced-in-playgrounds-d5f9371f8414 . Beyond that described, counter intuitive freedom that comes from boundaries, one can't be creative without the tools. In some disciplines this is more obvious. Set someone at a piano and ask them to play a song and nothing will come of it. But the same folks who understand that reality will then turn and hand a kid a paintbrush, paint, and a canvas and expect art.
And the thinly veiled rationalization of the poor products "created" by the past century of "artists" that they are joyfully expressing some child-like innocence, misses the reality that children's art isn't child-like because children want it to be that way. It is child-like because they lack skills they wish they had. To, as an adult, aspire to "child-like" is imitation. Appropriation. And silly.
2. Working with one's hands is profoundly different from typing out ideas on a keypad. In my last year of 43 years making my living as a potter https://mainstreetartsfest.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Bauman_000011_959900_08745887_3501.jpg , I did a lecture tour of Virginia. It included a day of presenting at Virginia Tech -- in their architecture department. The school has recognized a missing element in the young architect's experience. They are tech savvy and materials ignorant. They have a bunch of experience putting things together in the unlimited way that digital technology allows them ... but little-to-no 3D experience in fitting materials together. Virginia Tech was trying to address this by inviting guest lecturers like me to present them with that missing 3D experience.
3. Back in the 1800s, William James coined the term "Effortless Custody of Automatism" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav1250 to describe the truth -- that busying one's hands in the repetitive work of craft (what you, Paul, and your guest refer to as "art") frees the mind for deeper, more meaningful contemplation. The thought of digital creation is more linear and limited to what is present on the screen. Craft work is expansive and the mind is open to things not present. While my hands were on spinning clay, my mind was everywhere but there.
Off-topic Paul, but I read an excellent little book about literature and theology that touches on some of the things you brought up in a post of yours back in the spring that had to do with "Christian" fiction -- "Contemplative Realism" by Joshua Hren. Well worth tracking down if you can.
And congrats on the book, of course! My copy is supposed to arrive on Sept. 23.
I loved this conversation and have gone down a complete Caroline Ross rabbit hole! I was also at Chelsea School of Art at the same time, though I was doing a BA so didn’t meet her but my experience was just the same, the over emphasis on post modernism killed art for me…the love of the natural world, materials and observational skill was seriously uncool. It was all about concept, dry left brain, crappy concepts. I resisted in the end and I’m now drawing and painting out in the wild…I need to make my own paints and ink next :-)
44:00 “it will drive us insane” - I think it already has.
From my Substack - Noise to Signal
I believe for most of us today the noise to signal ratio is out of control. By which I mean of all the billions of bytes of information that is thrown at us every day, particularly in the online world, that which is actually useful and can help us to make appropriate decisions and take appropriate actions is being drowned out. This is particularly true in the developed online world but that now includes a very high proportion of the world’s population. And this affects everyone at all levels from top to bottom and from right to left. We can see the consequences in things like the confusion over COVID-19, political polarisation and binary black or white thinking, the conflicts in the world or the state of the global economy. Our elites are no more capable of separating the signal from the noise than we are as individuals and as a result they simply do not know what they’re doing. Arguably none of us do or perhaps only a very small minority.
I think we are reaching a crisis point, a collective global nervous breakdown, the consequences of which are very hard to predict. I think this also accounts for the very high levels of mental disease in the population. I do not mean disease in the conventional medical sense, but in its traditional sense of uneasiness, of dis-ease: of anxiety, paranoia, depression, nihilism.I experience it myself and I do not believe I am alone.
Thank you @paul, I had never heard of Catherine nor her work, and I am pleased and happy that you created the opportunity that changed that.
Listening to Catherine talk about how she lives her life, and the philosophy underpinning it was a proper treat. I have of course subscribed to both her Substacks, and intend to upgrade to paid to the primary in a few months.
What a lovely podcast episode. You both sound like some of my favourite friends.
Thanks so much for putting this together Paul. Looking forward to joining the campaign / gripe, too!
Just wanted to say how what you said about "I'm a gatherer, not a hunter" really resonated with me so much - what a useful articulation of a way of being! There's so much there - it's feminine, receptive, receiving all good things as gifts, not seeking to control the outcome, being open to surprise and the hand of God. The idea of gathering the gifts as they are given and saying "thank you," rather than identifying the specific thing I want and setting about to acquire exactly that, is a paradigm I can live happily and honestly in. It's a way to live out "Thy will be done," and I'm grateful to you for putting it so succinctly.
FWIW, Chinese translations of the Bible render the opening of John's gospel as "In the beginning was the Tao."
Have you read 'Christ the Eternal Tao?' I'm reading it at the moment. Quite astonishing.
No, though I just looked it up. Sounds like something I should check out.
I can highly recommend it. I plan to write about it here at some point.
I loved this conversation
But am aware I am not good at that process of patiently acquiring a skill … I’m a dabbler !
But then realised that just reading a book which seems challenging ( I’m a hundred pages into susannah Clark’s Jonathan strange and mr norrell which is over 900 pages long!) to even think of beginning such a book and then persisting until it becomes a world which it is a joy to be a part of is the same …… and resisting the impatience in me that says there are so many other books I need to read ; resisting the urge to get it done but taking joy in the complex world it is inviting me into complete with long footnotes .
And then my body being stretched and strained by gardening and that good obsession to keep weeding , even though darkness is falling , and I need to make a meal or last week out blackberrying to just pick the next juicy one and the next despite the scratched legs and purpled fingers.
Thank you so much for all your thoughts .
I was having a conversation with a dear friend yesterday concerning his relative who had decided to end her life as she doesn’t want to suffer through the last weeks of her life as as ( she lives in the Netherlands) and knew I felt uncomfortable with this but your conversation helped me to remember why.
Thanks for a great conversation Paul. I thoroughly enjoy your writing and thoughts. I was very pleased to be introduced to Caroline Ross and hear about her experiences with art. I too went to art school at a similar time. I have a love of painting and drawing and was excited to hone my skills, only to be disappointed with what I was actually offered. There was no drawing, there was no painting and there was no developing skills. At the time I was actually drawn into this conceptual way of thinking and for a time tried to be an artist on terms that just didn't sit right with me.
Long story short, I moved away from art so I could earn a living to exist in the world. I came back to painting 12 years after graduating, trying to make a living out of pet portraits in ink (I have since stopped because I couldn't actually make a living). My art college self would have been embarrassed of this commercial path. But now I feel glad that I was able to start making marks and actually developing my skills again. I do hope to go back to drawing and painting again very soon, for the love of it and maybe make something of beauty.
In any case, thanks for bringing all these thoughts to light :-)
What a great book cover!
An inspiring discussion, thank you
I want a friend like Caroline.
Caroline's journey from postmodern art school back to grinding her own pigments from stones perfectly captures something profound about our moment.
Traditional craftsmen knew they were participating in cosmic significance, not just assembling materials. When she makes ink and cuts a quill, she taps into that ancient understanding where the physical work itself becomes a form of contemplation and connection to deeper patterns.
The ink is like the dark floodwaters, and giving them shape as she writes is like bringing order and meaning out of those primordial depths.
As a craftsman, I somewhat disagree. Or, I would at least submit that it's far more complicated than that.
It sounds so romantic to think of that craftsman who starts from nothing and creates great work. But the "ancient understanding" that we craftsmen tap into is more often a practical sense that the wheel need not be re-invented.
There are scant few potters who dig their own clay, slake their own glazes from rocks they've ground themselves. It's not practical if one is going to make a living in craft.
Unless.....
And if they do, you probably know about them BECAUSE they do ... essentially, as with Caroline Ross .... it is the very marketing tool by which she is known in a world glutted with millions of artists doing something else.
There is an undeniable joy and education in getting back to (and being knowledgeable in) the most fundamental elements of one's craft. And it can be a wonderful hobby to do so. But it's not practical if you're going to make a living .....unless.... that is the niche upon which you're going to market your work.
Home-made clays and glazes and pigments and papers and anything else you can imagine as elemental to a craft are quite often inferior. They have their charms -- sometimes in their very fragile and fleeting nature. But they are quite often inferior materials to work from. They are the Flintstones stone wheels. And to suggest that they are a superior wheel and should be affixed to the modern automobile is, well, yabba-dabba-doo.
MC Hammer... :-)
Three themes in the conversation that struck home with me.
1. Counter to what our art schools have been teaching us for the past 100 years, structure doesn't inhibit creativity, it inspires it. A study done two decades ago: https://uxdesign.cc/fenced-in-playgrounds-d5f9371f8414 . Beyond that described, counter intuitive freedom that comes from boundaries, one can't be creative without the tools. In some disciplines this is more obvious. Set someone at a piano and ask them to play a song and nothing will come of it. But the same folks who understand that reality will then turn and hand a kid a paintbrush, paint, and a canvas and expect art.
And the thinly veiled rationalization of the poor products "created" by the past century of "artists" that they are joyfully expressing some child-like innocence, misses the reality that children's art isn't child-like because children want it to be that way. It is child-like because they lack skills they wish they had. To, as an adult, aspire to "child-like" is imitation. Appropriation. And silly.
2. Working with one's hands is profoundly different from typing out ideas on a keypad. In my last year of 43 years making my living as a potter https://mainstreetartsfest.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Bauman_000011_959900_08745887_3501.jpg , I did a lecture tour of Virginia. It included a day of presenting at Virginia Tech -- in their architecture department. The school has recognized a missing element in the young architect's experience. They are tech savvy and materials ignorant. They have a bunch of experience putting things together in the unlimited way that digital technology allows them ... but little-to-no 3D experience in fitting materials together. Virginia Tech was trying to address this by inviting guest lecturers like me to present them with that missing 3D experience.
3. Back in the 1800s, William James coined the term "Effortless Custody of Automatism" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav1250 to describe the truth -- that busying one's hands in the repetitive work of craft (what you, Paul, and your guest refer to as "art") frees the mind for deeper, more meaningful contemplation. The thought of digital creation is more linear and limited to what is present on the screen. Craft work is expansive and the mind is open to things not present. While my hands were on spinning clay, my mind was everywhere but there.
Listened last night while crocheting. Such a beautiful conversation. Inspiring.
Off-topic Paul, but I read an excellent little book about literature and theology that touches on some of the things you brought up in a post of yours back in the spring that had to do with "Christian" fiction -- "Contemplative Realism" by Joshua Hren. Well worth tracking down if you can.
And congrats on the book, of course! My copy is supposed to arrive on Sept. 23.
I loved this conversation and have gone down a complete Caroline Ross rabbit hole! I was also at Chelsea School of Art at the same time, though I was doing a BA so didn’t meet her but my experience was just the same, the over emphasis on post modernism killed art for me…the love of the natural world, materials and observational skill was seriously uncool. It was all about concept, dry left brain, crappy concepts. I resisted in the end and I’m now drawing and painting out in the wild…I need to make my own paints and ink next :-)
44:00 “it will drive us insane” - I think it already has.
From my Substack - Noise to Signal
I believe for most of us today the noise to signal ratio is out of control. By which I mean of all the billions of bytes of information that is thrown at us every day, particularly in the online world, that which is actually useful and can help us to make appropriate decisions and take appropriate actions is being drowned out. This is particularly true in the developed online world but that now includes a very high proportion of the world’s population. And this affects everyone at all levels from top to bottom and from right to left. We can see the consequences in things like the confusion over COVID-19, political polarisation and binary black or white thinking, the conflicts in the world or the state of the global economy. Our elites are no more capable of separating the signal from the noise than we are as individuals and as a result they simply do not know what they’re doing. Arguably none of us do or perhaps only a very small minority.
I think we are reaching a crisis point, a collective global nervous breakdown, the consequences of which are very hard to predict. I think this also accounts for the very high levels of mental disease in the population. I do not mean disease in the conventional medical sense, but in its traditional sense of uneasiness, of dis-ease: of anxiety, paranoia, depression, nihilism.I experience it myself and I do not believe I am alone.
See the work of Byung-Chul Han on this, specifically the books "The Burnout Society" and "In the Swarm: Digital Prospects."
Thank you @paul, I had never heard of Catherine nor her work, and I am pleased and happy that you created the opportunity that changed that.
Listening to Catherine talk about how she lives her life, and the philosophy underpinning it was a proper treat. I have of course subscribed to both her Substacks, and intend to upgrade to paid to the primary in a few months.